Topic: Chapter 2: Venetian Nights (Read 297911 times)

Drakilian · « **Reply #50 on:** June 21, 2016, 11:40:49 pm »

Heldric can tell that Steeple's... exaggerating a little bit, but he doesn't seem to be lying to him.

Octavius speaks then, "No one appears to be listening in on us, though a few are trying. Just the usual spies i'd expect at a gathering like this though."

Sicilan - "I'm not sure about that, did you see that brutish thing out there following... what was it? Kirl? Kril? Kirli? Whatever his name is, that servant of his looks like he wants blood."

Octavius - "And? What could a simple mortal do to our man here? Hell, you could melt the flesh from his bones and annihilate his soul without much difficulty at all!"

Sicilan nods uneasily, "Maybe, but that man's a ghoul - and at that, he's been altered. Something about him feels off. Same with that master of his. I would not relish such a task."

---

Steeple, for his part, notices as Heldric's attention seems to shift almost imperceptibly between himself and the empty air besides him. Perhaps the man is just nervous? He can't seem to hold eye contact, at least.

Maurice seems to have other things on his mind, however - "My God! Did you see the way that Barabus was looking at us? Like a dog drooling over a bloody steak! What's his problem? And what's he doing with Kiril?

I mean, so what, we gave him over to a fleshcrafter who turned him into a dog and then made him fight another dog to death in a pit - he came out fine didn't he? So unreasonable!"

The rock seems to just be babbling, Steeple feels it mimicking his own unease over the reappearance of his old manservant.

Steeple, too, had heard the rumours of Lucien's death at the hands of a werewolf pack. Yet Barabus is here, fully restored (and visibly enhanced), completely fine...

Forge · « **Reply #51 on:** June 22, 2016, 01:16:33 am »

Heldric smiles in his own way and visibly relaxes slightly after Steeple amd the spirits talk to him

"There are a few trying to listen in on us but it seems my precautions are holding and keeping our talk secret for now, I'll keep checking though. As for eating a Tremere, it wasn't really intentional but it was Goratrix's favoured servant so she was very strong and lack of blood after the fight let me beast gain the upper hand for a moment." Heldric visibly tremors as he mentions Goratrix. It would be obvious even saying the name was more than uncomfortable for him.

"If These... Good Tremere oppose him I will aid in any way I can and send you work of contacts I might have in Venice. If I cannot find any myself I will ask my Sire and speak on your behalf in the matter"

He pauses and glances around the room "That is most of my news and secrets though I would like to discuss paths and rituals with you at some point. What about yourself and the Prince? Do you both fare well. Also do you know much about what has happened with Kiri and his new servant?"

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #52 on:** June 22, 2016, 01:01:01 pm »

"Excellent!!!", steeple silent claps at Heldric's willingness to help his Tremere allies. That would soften the blow of his failure to avert war and hopefully be enough to keep on Celestyn's good side.

"I would be happy to share whatever you would be interested in learning, my friend!" Steeple agrees; "I have even learned a few of Lucian's fire tricks, a while back, if you are interested. When we have the time, I'll fill you in on some of the Rituals I know."

Out of habit, Steeple glances into his Mirror of Second Sight, at the spaces Heldric had been looking toward.

"As for the Prince," Steeple continues, presuming Heldric refers to Prince Maurice, "He's glad to see you. After having only my sorry face to look at lately, he says you are a 'sight for sore eyes'."

'Hmm...' Steeple wonders to himself, 'or did he mean the sight of Heldric gave him sore eyes...? Ah well, no matter.'

Concerning Barabus, Steeple frowns, "Yes, typical of Kiril to steal something that wasn't his, but at least he's not my problem any longer. I think they deserve each other actually. Pretty sure however, that Lucian was not devoured by wolves. It was the land that swallowed him. And I blame Kiril for it."

cdrive1 · « **Reply #53 on:** June 22, 2016, 01:56:34 pm »

John now has his attention not on the giant, but on his surroundings, intending on making sure that no one is trying to glide their way through the dark.

Forge · « **Reply #54 on:** June 22, 2016, 04:48:48 pm »

Heldric grimaces "Please do thank Prince Maurice for his kinds words thpugh I do know is is my appearance that usually causes the sore eyes."

He looks more serious then "Devoured by the land? That is news to me, I will have to look into it later." he looks towards the door "I will definitely take you up on discussing the rites and paths later but I believe it is time for the latest 'session' to start. I wonder of anything at all will be different this time round..."

Drakilian · « **Reply #55 on:** June 22, 2016, 08:37:04 pm »

To his left, Steeple sees a man of average height with a giant burning hole in his chest, a heavy beard and wise eyes. To his right, he sees a heavily armed and armoured warrior with what appear to be a large number of spear wounds. They appear to be chatting with each other.

Heldric sees the discreet movement, despite whatever efforts Steeple put towards it.

"Seems we're not the only ones hearing dead people's voices," Maurice says.

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #56 on:** June 22, 2016, 08:38:19 pm »

"Ah, yes, I'd like to see how they do all this," Steeple agrees, then adds before Heldric can exit, "So, I thought you were over the whole ghost thing with Seelie. Yet here you now have twice the trouble on your hands?"

Forge · « **Reply #57 on:** June 22, 2016, 09:07:31 pm »

"Yes, I notice you still need the mirror though. When we have time to share knowledge I can let you know a few things about conversing with the spirits."

He vaguely indicates the air near him "Seelie was... Terrifying but these two gentlemen are rather pleasant company. They are also very knowledgable and powerful in their own ways, I also owe them a debt so we travel together for the moment."

He looks at the door again "They also warned me about Barrabus. Out of every undead and ghoul in the room, they picked him out as dangerous."

Drakilian · « **Reply #58 on:** June 22, 2016, 09:11:59 pm »

"Well, dangerous to you", Octavius says.

"Dangerous to a lot of people, really, but specifically to you," Sicilan continues.

"Probably more dangerous people there. That Anton seemed like a truly nasty fellow, the spot he occupies in the spirit world is a screaming maelstrom of pain and hatred and anguish. Quite unpleasant to be around, really."

"You're much softer," Sicilan agrees.

"Like a doe," - Octavius.

A short pause then.

"An ugly doe," - Still Octavius.

Drakilian · « **Reply #59 on:** June 22, 2016, 09:18:20 pm »

"I do find it interesting that he mentions Etrius - the man was exceedingly loyal to Tremere in life, Tremere's favourite apprentice, I would say. Extremely powerful, but with none of Goratrix' mad genius and overwhelming ambition, they were, in many ways, opposites. Perhaps you would like him. Still a filthy bloodsucker though. Traitors to the Order and all that, they all deserve to burn."

He exaggerates matters quite a bit, your friend. Goratrix does not possess nearly as powerful a hold over the Tremere as Steeple would have you believe. Maybe a fifth of the House belongs to him, the rest are loyal to either Tremere or themselves. None defy him.

There is no risk of Goratrix rising up if the Fleshcrafters attack the clan, he is bound to Tremere by the most powerful Geas known to us - the blood bond. All the council members are.

Forge · « **Reply #60 on:** June 22, 2016, 09:36:30 pm »

"he is also quite mad, but an ally I wish to help, especially if he is in anyway opposed to... Him."

Then out loud he adds to Steeple "It seems nearly a fifth of then clan follows him but he is still bound to Tremere as are they. Which luckily means he cannot try and sieze controle even if war happens, I'll help your benefactor either way, though keeping my identity and knowledge a secret would be appreciated as I have had several warnings that if it get outs even your benefactor might decide to come after me."

Drakilian · « **Reply #61 on:** June 23, 2016, 11:49:27 am »

Tommaso begins his speech as he always does - "To anyone who knows anything, the course of action is clear. We must strike at the head of the serpent of the Moslem world, at Palestine, where there are Crusader kingdoms already present who not only need our aid but will be able to then help us create an overwhelming force to topple the enemy’s most secure powerbases. Our victory must be symbolic and loud, we need to show them what fear is, show them the power of Christ’s army - and of his devils too…”

Even as the orator speaks in Spanish, four servants, each standing ten feet from Tommaso creating a circle which acts as the stage, translate into the four other languages of the Delegation: German, Italian, Greek, and Arabic.

Anton has heard this speech before, as Tommaso had led with it every night of the deliberation thus far; at his side stands Lucita, who is acting as Tommaso’s aide.

Nothing untowards appears to be happening among the crowd, just the usual rapt attention from the Lasombra delegation, the deliberate sneers from the Ventrue delegation, subtle disappointment from the Byzantine delegation, and the studied indifference of everyone else.

Now comes the part where the various members stand to give their support.

“I, Lucita, de Aragorn, lend my support and adulation to Master Brexiano.”

More members of the Lasombra delegation step up to announce their own support, soon it will be Anton and Kiril's turn to announce their own and, then, their sire's allegiances.

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #62 on:** June 23, 2016, 12:11:35 pm »

"Oh, that is interesting. I wonder if Etrius is on more equal footing than I had originally thought." Steeple replies thoughtfully. "Never-the-less, your help is most welcome and will of course remain in the strictest confidence!"

"While Tremere does have the Bond, I think that won't be an issue for too much longer. He's bound to self-combust or some other horrifying result (torpor probably being an option in there somewhere as well), due to all the powerful wills he is consuming."

"As I am sure you can attest, bringing into yourself one greater than yourself is terribly taxing. Imagine what it must be like with a whole hoard of them in your head!" Steeple concludes with a knowing wink.

Daedalus · « **Reply #63 on:** June 23, 2016, 01:37:50 pm »

Saladin narrowdms his eyes at Kiril. It was going to be interesting to see Kiril's choice since Husayn was givibg him advice. Cant ignore him either. He smiles at the thought.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #64 on:** June 23, 2016, 02:40:21 pm »

Well? Kiril asks Husayn. To Anton, he says quietly "Do you intend to speak for our sire?"

Not Aman · « **Reply #65 on:** June 23, 2016, 03:13:43 pm »

"If you wish." Anton says bitterly.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #66 on:** June 23, 2016, 03:17:50 pm »

"Does this upset you?"

Not Aman · « **Reply #67 on:** June 23, 2016, 03:45:07 pm »

"I should not speak for Basilio." Anton says simply, clemching his teeth. It's a weird feeling, anger at a beloved sire.

Drakilian · « **Reply #68 on:** June 23, 2016, 03:50:05 pm »

"But in speaking for him, there is an opportunity, yes?"

"Your "beloved" sire offered you freedom from him! Did you forget that? Your payment for saving his life. You need not speak for him anymore.

Attacking the palestines head-on would be a foolish proposition - Egypt is a weak point in the Muslim world right now, strategically it would make the most sense to strike there.

Every day you've proclaimed your support for idiocy, every day I tell you to choose more wisely! Support von Saschen, stab at Basilio's treasured reputation!

Not Aman · « **Reply #69 on:** June 23, 2016, 05:14:54 pm »

"And everyday, I say the same. I will not betray the tenents of my code to strike at Basilio. The Lasombra are My clan. I will not go against them. Nor will I advocate for a misguided crusade. We must strike at Jerusalem. It is our purpose.

"It has been many nights since we began this debate. Each night here is another one missed back in my princedom. But this decision is crucial, so I stay.״p

Lord Tommasso has expressed the merits to an attack Palestine, and his strategy is well formed and thought out. We must support the crusaders in the country of our Lord. We must strike a meaningfull crusade, a crushing blow to demoralize the Muslems and their allies."

"What Master Tommasso has not expressed is the absolute folly of an attack in Egypt. The proud Venture, have explained their own strategy. Egypt is weak! They cry out!"

"This is a fearful retreat from the crusade. What purpose does taking Egypt have? To create another mal-equipped crusader outpost? I would not balk from destroying the Setites land but we will have better oppurtunities to do so. Now is the biggest chance we have to restore Christian rule in Palestine. We can not hide from our duty. For this we were damned."

"I, Anton Petrov Veranin, Prince of Kronstadt, lend my support to Master Brexiano."

Forge · « **Reply #70 on:** June 24, 2016, 01:12:17 am »

"So steeple has also eaten and elder? as an ally that makes him stronger and more dangerous at the same time"

"Indeed, I gained much and suffered an equal amount to balance things out. I cannot imagine what he must be going through, or if his mind is even intact."

He pauses and decides to make the guess outloud "It must have been of great help to you to have Prince Maurice aiding you during the tricky parts."

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #71 on:** June 24, 2016, 09:46:20 am »

"Oh, yes," Steeple replies, thinking about his 'Assimilation Project', "I couldn't have done it without him. His wisdom in these matters has been a true godsend."

Forge · « **Reply #72 on:** June 24, 2016, 12:06:46 pm »

Heldric nods "For now let us return, we can meet again later in a safer place."

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #73 on:** June 24, 2016, 02:48:22 pm »

"Oh, glad we didn't miss much," Steeple says, entering the hall and catching the last of Anton's speech.

---

Returned from http://www.bountyheadbebop.com/forum/index.php?topic=2029.msg119624#msg119624

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #74 on:** June 24, 2016, 02:50:50 pm »

"Agreed," Steeple says, heading back to the meeting.

Drakilian · « **Reply #75 on:** June 24, 2016, 02:51:16 pm »

Tommaso gives his regard to Anton, as e always does, nods warmly, acknowledging his word.

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #76 on:** June 24, 2016, 02:59:45 pm »

Being that entering late has drawn some attention, Steeple capitalizes on it and loudly declares - "Radu - Prince of Bistritz - also pledges his support to Master Brexiano!"

Forge · « **Reply #77 on:** June 24, 2016, 05:00:59 pm »

Heldric then also steps forward "All present also know that my Sire Malechite is against the war. The current crusade is miss timed and badly prepared, it will only bring destruction and no gains."

He then heads to the side of the room where he can wait as normal while everyone says the same speech over again.

Drakilian · « **Reply #78 on:** June 25, 2016, 09:42:40 pm »

A host of booing interrupts Heldric's declaration, at which point Brexiano makes a calming motion towards the crowd.

"Please, my brothers and sisters, let him say his piece. It is why we have called this court, after all, to hear the thoughts of all to be involved."

After Heldric finishes - to a bit of clapping from the Byzantine delegation - Tommaso continues - "How I would that war could be averted, Heldric of Balgrad. How I would that peace was a reality, that none of the immortal blood need be shed. But war is a reality we must face, a reality that comes ever closer, snapping out our heels like an impatient dog. If we do not guide the mortals, who will? So if there is to be war, as there must, then let us make use of the opportunity."

Cheers at that, this time from both the Lasombra and Ventrue delegations. Once more Heldric feels that hint of desperation, of uselessness when he sees just how many people are arrayed against him.

"Oh, how your world will burn for the arrogance in this room", Octavius murmurs ever so quietly.

cdrive1 · « **Reply #79 on:** June 25, 2016, 11:42:05 pm »

John had been silent throughout the proceedings, knowing full well how much of a sham the whole vote would become. "For the record, I am against this war for while pain can be inflicted, I don't see it as sublime. Though my Sire desires war, if that is what he wants, that he shall get. I throw my weight into the war under protest." He would chime in after the cheers subside.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #80 on:** June 27, 2016, 08:37:16 am »

"Kiril, Prince of Sofia, supports Master Brexiano."

Drakilian · « **Reply #81 on:** June 27, 2016, 06:27:41 pm »

A host of whispers accompanies John's statement - mostly, as far as Steeple and Kiril can tell, comments about the many horrible things the man's sire was going to do to him when he found out about this, and of how the Ventrue delegation has just been given a huge advantage in this momentary display of doubt. Even now the cainites can feel the air in the room shifting.

Tommaso turns his eyes onto Kiril then, and smiles.

"A newcomer to these courts, it is good to see new blood in these dusty halls - even the young can be wise, it seems."

Tommaso barely acknowledges John's proclamation.

Tommaso then cedes the floor, and other, lesser speakers come up to repeat themselves and the points of the Lasombra representative. All the the Conspiracy can see the growing anticipation on the side of the Ventrue delegation...

Daedalus · « **Reply #82 on:** June 27, 2016, 07:56:37 pm »

"This is not good." Saladin mumbles to himself in Arabic.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #83 on:** June 27, 2016, 08:08:18 pm »

Kiril, unaccountably pleased by the unexpected praise, heads toward Master Brexiano's group.
Tomasso seems a most charming, intelligent man. And yet, Basilio harbors suspicions as to his motives.
Kiril ought to try and become closer to Master Brexiano.

Not Aman · « **Reply #84 on:** June 27, 2016, 11:08:17 pm »

Anton's internal rage grows.

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #85 on:** June 28, 2016, 08:30:55 am »

'I say,' Steeple thinks to his astute Prince Maurice, 'Is sir Anton's eye supposed to be twitching like that?'

Forge · « **Reply #86 on:** June 28, 2016, 02:35:46 pm »

"It seems this new Prince, John, is even less adept than I at this sort of thing. I do believe his speach did more harm than good to the warmongers. Though could this be his Sire playing both sides? Claiming that he was supportive and a foolish childer spoke badly if they win or claiming it was a set-up to make people doubt if they loose. Sigh, my head hurts just trying to work this farce out and it isn't as if being here is doing any good, they are set on war already."

Heldric keeps his senses heightened and scans to room, trying to make note of who is on what side and those who he knows, planning to talk with them quietly while the lesser speakers repeated themselves once more. this whole 'debate' was pointless and he had spoken before but he had to at least make a good showing for his Sire, that came before his own distain.

cdrive1 · « **Reply #87 on:** June 28, 2016, 05:00:15 pm »

John bows, "I am sorry to pollute the room with my foolishness, I should know better." before he walks out, muttering about how badly he bungled the whole thing, basically proving his point at not being good at these meetings.

Drakilian · « **Reply #88 on:** June 28, 2016, 10:06:29 pm »

"I'm not sure, but it sure seems natural on his face. Welcome. It looks like it belongs," Maurice says.

---

Husayn absent-mindedly interjects in Kiril's thoughts then, He is an orator, he gave you no special attention. Do not be so easily seduced by kindness.

---

Soon, the head of the Ventrue delegation takes the stand.

A mob of individuals begins to pour in as it comes time for Von Sachsen to speak, the torches that the Lasombra delegation put out for dramatic effect have been replaced, making it into a well lit room. Von Sachsen stands at the center, four translators separating him from the crowd. The man is tall and powerfully built despite his having noticeably reached his middle years.

The gray-bearded general is all fire and conviction, blindly boasting and carrying on. Where Tommaso seemed a man with a mission, a clarion voice in the midst of a mob, this man was the head of that mob as those around him wanted nothing more than to be near him as he bellowed. The only real difference between the two theaters was that this one, with the exception of a single corner where the Lasombra delegation dwelt, was very well lit.

Ana and Anton tell the others that this was Lanzo von Sachsen, vassal to High Lord Hardestadt. Nearby sat his two aids, Roland du Rocher and Aimery du Versey, Ventrue both; Roland was also Lanzo’s childe and confidant. While Aimery de Versey was a confidant and blood brother.

“My opponent would have us challenge the dragon by charging blindly into its teeth. He would, in the name of gamesmanship, demand a fountain of blood that would not be ours to wade through, but for on which our enemies could feed, and grow stronger even as we are made unto ash! What foolishness would it be to go to their strongholds and loudly gnash at our teeth? We must use tact and guile to defeat this enemy, for the enemy is filled with cunning and duplicity and so must we. Egypt is the crown jewel of their empire but they leave it weak! They know our prize lies in the Levant and they prepare for our eventual coming. We must strike at their heart while they are guarding ours! We must lay waste to their jewel and, as we drink our fill there we will sunder the rest of their empire, cutting it in twain. Then we can come at their backs and they will never know what hit them. Their empires will crumble and we shall walk into Jerusalem with our swords in sheaths for our enemies will have already fallen!” – von Sachsen

His bluster and ego are commendable.

"Subtle. Very subtle, but it's there isn't it?", Octacius says.

Sicilan squints for a second, then confirms it for Octavius.

"Indeed."

"He's working some sort of magic on this crowd. Not powerful magic, but just a nudge here, a nudge there... with a crowd like this, maybe that's all he needs."

The ghostly warrior then leans back, a pensive look on his face, "No. No, there is something subtle at work here... but I don't think it's coming from him. Not all of it, anyway."

"A most interesting observation, Sicilan, but if there is someone else, I can't find them."

"Neither can I."

Forge · « **Reply #89 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:38:12 pm »

"If it is that well performed, it might be very powerful in this situation. though if found out it would destroy him. You cant have been the only two who noticed either, the lasombre have invested too much to have not prepared." glancing around "We are hunters, they are hunters too, so let them find the prey while we find them. Search for others tracing the magic if you are able!"

Heldric keeps his senses heightened and searches for anyone that might be concentrating unusually hard while not looking at the speaker.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #90 on:** June 30, 2016, 10:58:54 am »

Why do you have to ruin everything?

Regardless, Kiril's mission is to observe Tommaso. Which he still plans on doing.

Not Aman · « **Reply #91 on:** June 30, 2016, 03:43:42 pm »

Anton looks out.
"Are you so fearful of assasins that you would divert our purpose?! We have a single crusade, we can not waste it on frivolties! We do not need to include the Setites in our holy conquest." Anton says, as he usually does, assuming he's allowed to.

Drakilian · « **Reply #92 on:** June 30, 2016, 05:53:39 pm »

As if on cue Aimery leapt to his feet, he was as tall as his master and seemed to be made of wound muscle ready to spring. He found Anton in the crowd and pointed.

"You lose your way, young Crusader. Our attack is against moslem interests, which the Assassins will leap forward to defend, for they draw their power from such sources. The Setites are worms, riddling the hearts of the eastern kingdoms, spreading their doctrine of corruption wherever they go - but the true power, the foundation of power in the eastern kingdoms, is the Assamites. You do not see far enough ahead, Dark One."

Drakilian · « **Reply #93 on:** June 30, 2016, 06:00:19 pm »

A large burly man wearing ornate armour with the symbol of the Teutonic Order emblazoned across the front, steps forward.

“I, Erasmus, representative of the Black Cross, lend my support and adulation to Master de Versey and Lord von Sachsen.”

There is a certain sort of boredom in Erasmus' voice - the knight would clearly prefer to not be wasting his time here, presumably the same with most of the other visitors. Duty keeps him here, wasting his time.

A cheer came from the crowd while de Versey and von Sachsen each gave him a small nod.

A thought strikes Anton then - almost out of the blue - He had forgotten to present his companions to the Prince. Narses was not a forgiving man, and despite Anton's own distaste he knows far more than enough to anger the Archbishop of Nod.

Due to the massive influx of Cainites in Venice recently, Narses has delegated the welcoming of new blood to a servant of his, Lord Aliprando.

Drakilian · « **Reply #94 on:** June 30, 2016, 06:09:24 pm »

"There", Octavius says.

"The second one, that one with the muscles like ropes strung onto his frame. It's him, I'm almost sure of it. I don't like that one in the back though, oh no, brooding the way he is. Something feels wrong here, about all of this."

"I wouldn't reveal any suspicions", Sicilan murmurs, "Just yet, lest you find yourself thrown out of the assembly with a few knives firmly set in your back for your troubles."

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #95 on:** June 30, 2016, 06:59:53 pm »

"Who cares where the fight starts, as long as it starts?" Steeple whispers to Prince Maurice, wondering how long this is going to take.

Forge · « **Reply #96 on:** June 30, 2016, 08:11:44 pm »

Heldric sighs internally but tries to keep it from showing on his face as he scans over the crowd to get a look at the man without seeming to concentrate on him "This is why I hate politics. Now I am aware of magic being used, it appears by my own faction and I cannot say anything incase it is some form of trap or I make enemies for myself and my sire. Please keep an eye on him any if any others are aware of what he is doing."

Slowly developing a headache from being forced into this situation Heldric tries to see which of the main parties pay attention to the man.

Not Aman · « **Reply #97 on:** July 01, 2016, 01:38:01 am »

"Our way must be focused! It is foolish to waste our strength on the worms before we destroy the Vultures! Our focus must be on Palestine, not the putrid waste of the Setite lands." Anton retorts.

He of course, begins to look for his companions. They need to be introduced to the Prince, even if the Prince is filthy.

Sethaniel · « **Reply #98 on:** July 01, 2016, 01:59:33 pm »

"Besides," adds Kiril, "attacking Egypt leaves us vulnerable on two fronts."

BerkaZerka · « **Reply #99 on:** July 01, 2016, 02:50:36 pm »

"Quite right!" Steeple agrees loudly.

News:

Author Topic: Chapter 2: Venetian Nights (Read 297911 times)